As Russia steps up sabotage, interference and intimidation across Europe, how far is Vladimir Putin prepared to go? Former MI6 chief Sir John Scarlett joins Tom and Patrick to explain what Putin wants in Ukraine, whether Russia could escalate into a direct confrontation with NATO, and why intelligence back channels may be crucial to preventing escalation. Get in touch: generalandjournalist@thetimes.co.uk 05:28 - Did the West misjudge Putin? 09:46 - Is Putin under pressure? 15:04 - What does Putin want in Ukraine? 17:30 - Russia’s hybrid war against NATO 23:49 - Why the CIA Chief went to Moscow Guest: Sir John Scarlett, former MI6 Chief and co-founder of SC Strategy Hosts: General Sir Patrick Sanders and Tom Newton Dunn Patrick brings his experience as a former head of the British Army to the podcast. He is also a Conservative peer and advises the party on defence. Producer: Julia Webster, Shabnam Grewal Executive producer: Priyanka Deladia Image: Kathia Mestanza, Getty Read the best of our journalism: https://www.thetimes.com/ Listen live to Times Radio: https://www.thetimes.com/radio/live Subscribe to The Times and The Sunday Times YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/subscription_center?add_user=timesonlinevideo Find us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/timesandsundaytimes/ Find us on X: https://x.com/thetimes Find us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thetimes/