What if the meaning crisis begins when wonder gets reduced to problem-solving? John Vervaeke is joined again by philosopher William Desmond for a deep conversation on astonishment, curiosity, scientism, AI, religion, and the recovery of philosophical practice. They begin with Desmond's essay on the "dearth of astonishment," asking why modern thought so often treats mystery as something to master rather than something that opens us to reality. The conversation moves through Plato, Aristotle, Hegel, logical positivism, computation, insight, and the limits of formal systems. Along the way, Vervaeke and Desmond explore why intelligibility cannot be reduced to determination, why living insight is not the same as computation, and why practices of dialogue may be necessary for reawakening wonder. They close by turning toward religion, trust, forgiveness, and the possibility that the recovery of meaning requires a renewed openness to the sacred. Key Takeaways Scientism is not science itself, but a philosophical interpretation that tries to make all essential questions answerable by scientific method. Desmond distinguishes astonishment, perplexity, and curiosity as different forms of wonder. Curiosity can become reductive when mystery is treated only as a problem to be solved or mastered. Insight cannot be fully explained as inference or computation because it involves a living act of seeing connection. The recovery of meaning may require practices that cultivate astonishment, dialogue, porosity, and reverence. Religion cannot be dismissed without first taking seriously the human condition of vulnerability, longing, failure, trust, and mystery. Resources Mentioned Astonishments and Science: Engagements with William Desmond - edited by Paul Tyson William Desmond, "The Dearth of Astonishment: On Curiosity, Scientism and Thinking as Negativity" William Desmond, God and the Between Gabriel Marcel, Being and Having Bernard Lonergan, Insight Charles Taylor, A Secular Age Augustine's Cassiciacum dialogues About William Desmond William Desmond is a philosopher whose work engages metaphysics, religion, art, science, and the question of transcendence. In this conversation, he and John Vervaeke continue their exploration of astonishment, scientism, the between, and the recovery of philosophical practice. About Lectern Lectern creates conversations at the intersection of philosophy, meaning, wisdom, and the recovery of deeper forms of knowing. If you would like to donate purely out of goodwill to support John’s work, please consider joining our Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke John Vervaeke: https://johnvervaeke.com/ https://twitter.com/vervaeke_john https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke