In this new John & Phil conversation John talks about the idea of moving “beyond belief” into deeper, experiential understanding of the divine — a recurring theme in John's life and teaching. Producer: Phil Shankland, InSight New Media Productions Ltd https://insightnewmedia.co.uk Copyright video: Spiritual Unfoldment Trust 2025 Title design: Wendy Mayes Design https://www.wendymayes.co.uk You can watch another 3 new conversations with John and Phil in church now in the 'To Make Whole Be Whole' section here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUMOi0TFuqj6eND-mJRf8i2Tnw 1. The great calling (38:33) 2. Lighten our darkness (36:22) 3. Lost in thought (35:09) John's Butler's first audiobook 'Mystic Approaches' is now available on Audible - https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Mystic-Approaches-Audiobook/B0DQ64PF5P John's latest book 'Mystic Love' is now available here - https://spiritualunfoldment.co.uk/store/Mystic-Love-%E2%80%93-letters-to-Christine-p674982505 You can watch 80+ ad-free videos with John in the "Feet on the Ground' supporters section. Join here - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi0TFuqj6eND-mJRf8i2Tnw/join. Those wanting more detailed accounts of John's life experience - the formative influences, which have taught and made him what he is, will find it in his 9 published books, available through the website: https://spiritualunfoldment.co.uk/store/. Did you know you can now listen to John on Spotify and other audio platforms? Here is his most popular recording 'Common sense guide to meditation' (1m views) - https://ffm.to/commonsenseguidetomeditation. FREE 86pp PDF 'Introducing Spiritual Unfoldment' With tempting extracts describing his life-long spiritual journey - in the hope they will encourage readers to go further, buy his books and read the whole story for themselves, we invite you to join John Butler's email community and receive a free 86-page PDF 'Introducing Spiritual Unfoldment'. Go to http://spiritualunfoldment.co.uk and scroll to the bottom of any page. Those who wish to support the Work of the Spiritual Unfoldment Trust can donate here - https://www.paypal.com/donate/?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=BBAWMHB4JQMKY Find out more about the the Spiritual Unfoldment Trust: https://spiritualunfoldment.co.uk/charitable-trust/ Disclaimer: https://spiritualunfoldment.co.uk/disclaimer Topics: Simple Living and Handwork John reflects on early rural life, crafting with reed pens, farming, Bible copying, and the value of manual, meditative work. The Decline of Traditional Literacy and Articulacy Discussion of the lost art of handwriting, letter writing, and speaking clearly, contrasting past standards with modern degradation. Belief vs. Experience in Spiritual Life John explores his discomfort with imposed belief, creeds, and dogma, favoring instead direct experience, meditation, and inner knowing. Mysticism, Comfort, and the Child’s Instinct Childhood experiences with church, nature, and prayer provided a profound sense of comfort and connection, forming the roots of mysticism. The Journey Beyond Belief The idea of moving “beyond belief” into deeper, experiential understanding of the divine — a recurring theme in John's life and teaching. Keywords: Mysticism Belief Silence Calligraphy Beyond Chapters: 00:00 – Life Without Television: Simplicity, Stillness, and Calligraphy John recalls life on the farm, crafting reed pens, and Bible copying — a meditative life without distractions. 04:03 – Lost Arts: Writing by Hand and the Decline of Clear Speech A lament for the lost disciplines of penmanship, letter-writing, and articulate speech in modern times. 10:32 – Childhood, Tanks, and the First Realisation of Human Impact A memory of a tank crushing a tree leads to reflections on the unconscious power of human destruction. 16:51 – Do We Need to Believe? Creed, Meditation, and the Inner Journey John questions the usefulness of belief when divorced from understanding, sharing his journey into meditation and interfaith insights. 36:08 – Beyond Belief: Love, Language, and the Infinite He speaks of mystical love, the insufficiency of language to contain it, and the heart's longing for the “beyond.”