Tony Fadell created the iPod, co-created the iPhone, and founded Nest (which he sold to Google for $3.2 billion). He’s co-authored over 300 patents, was part of the legendary team at General Magic, and wrote one of the most important and inspiring books for builders, called Build. *In our in-depth conversation, we discuss:* 1. The heated internal debates about whether the iPhone should have a physical keyboard 2. Why opinion-based decisions are essential for v1 products 3. Why marketing matters as much as the product itself, and how the iPod almost failed 4. Why voice will eventually become the primary interface with AI 5. Why cognitive surrender to AI is the biggest risk facing product builders today *Brought to you by:* WorkOS—Make your app enterprise-ready, with SSO, SCIM, RBAC, and more: https://workos.com/lenny Vanta—Automate compliance, manage risk, and accelerate trust with AI: https://vanta.com/lenny *Episode transcript:* https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/father-of-the-ipod-and-iphone-on *Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts:* https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0 *Where to find Tony Fadell:* • X: https://x.com/tfadell • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonyfadell • Website: https://www.buildc.com *Where to find Lenny:* • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ *In this episode, we cover:* (00:00) Introduction to Tony Fadell (02:23) The Blackberry vs. iPhone keyboard debate (07:50) Micromanaging vs. kind lies: what great products actually need (15:57) The Nest thermostat and smoke alarm story (21:22) How to decide what’s worth building: pain plus new technology (27:36) The three-generation rule: why nothing works the first time (34:20) The full customer journey: why marketing defines your product (40:53) The power of storytelling and the press-release-first approach (48:37) The evolution of product management and the builder role (50:27) Why AI-generated code creates brittle, unmaintainable products (58:00) Storytelling techniques (1:05:45) The next iPhone (1:13:15) Hardware is back (1:17:01) What Tony is most excited about (1:21:38) Working with Tony (1:25:36) Ethics, morals, and the responsibility of product builders (1:32:40) How to connect with Tony and Build Collective *Referenced:* • BlackBerry: https://www.netflix.com/title/81725542 • Functional systems: https://x.com/bhalligan/status/2051873396896518558/photo/1 • Nest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Nest • Everyone’s an engineer now: Inside v0’s mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch • Hermann Hauser on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hermannhauser • Acorn Computers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Computers • Skunkworks project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunkworks_project • Netscape Navigator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape_Navigator • Unpacking Amazon’s unique ways of working | Bill Carr (author of Working Backwards): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/unpacking-amazons-unique-ways-of • General Magic: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6849786 • Dario Amodei’s website: https://www.darioamodei.com • Flighty: https://flighty.com • Dave Chappelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Chappelle • Humane Inc.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humane_Inc • Her: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1798709 • Spike Jonze: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_Jonze • Waymo: https://waymo.com • Snapchat CEO: Why distribution has become the most important moat | Evan Spiegel: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/snapchat-ceo-why-distribution-is • Simbe Robotics: https://www.simberobotics.com • Greyparrot: https://www.greyparrot.ai • Grok: https://grok.com • Cerebras: https://www.cerebras.ai • Esther 4:14: https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Esther%204%3A14 • iPod Inventor and Nest Founder Tony Fadell Named MAD’s Inaugural Designer in Residence: https://mad.mit.edu/news/ipod-inventor-and-nest-founder-tony-fadell-named-mit-morningside-academy-for-design-s-inaugural-designer-in-residence *Recommended books:* • Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0063046067 • Working Backwards: Insights, Stories, and Secrets from Inside Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Working-Backwards-Insights-Stories-Secrets/dp/1250275717 _Production and marketing by https://penname.co/._ _For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com._ Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.