There are some conversations that feel like a warm hug. They make you laugh, feel safe, and a little like you want to cry. Today's show is all of the above. This week on Laugh Lines, we sit down with New York Times bestselling author, podcast host, and Duke University professor, Kate Bowler. (And I’m just going to say it... I would like to formally submit my application to be her best friend.) Kate’s new book, Joyful Anyway, asks a question that stopped me in my tracks: What if joy isn’t something we earn… but something that finds us? Even in the middle of the messy, complicated parts of life? Penn and I talk to Kate about “the ache”, the difference between happiness and joy, and why sometimes the most inappropriate and grief-stricken moments are the ones where laughter sneaks in anyway. Happiness can feel like something we’re supposed to chase, optimize, and maybe even buy. But joy? Joy is a surprise. It’s that fleeting, soul-expanding moment where, somehow, everything feels okay, even when it’s not. Kate also shares how her stage IV cancer diagnosis changed the way she sees everything. How it stripped life down to what actually matters, and how, somehow, even in hospital rooms and heartbreak, joy still found a way in. If you’ve been feeling "the ache" lately and need some joy in your life, this insightful and funny conversation will meet you right where you are. (Oh, and Penn wants you to know he still doesn't like Duke basketball... you'll have to listen to the show for more.) We love to hear from you! Leave us a message at 323-364-3929 or write the show at podcast@theholdernessfamily.com. You can also listen to this show wherever you get podcasts. #podcast #grief #joy Learn more about Kate and her book: https://katebowler.com/ ___ Follow us: https://www.instagram.com/theholdernessfamily/ https://www.tiktok.com/@theholdernessfamily https://www.facebook.com/TheHoldernessfamily Shop our merch: https://shopholderness.com/ Laugh with us at https://www.youtube.com/@holdernessfamilylaughs?sub_confirmation=1 Sing along at https://www.youtube.com/@theholdernessfamily?sub_confirmation=1 We try our best to respond to comments. XO