View show notes for this episode: https://bit.ly/3JEksSd Sign up to receive Peter's email newsletter: https://bit.ly/4c602k2 In this episode, Peter sits down with Drs. Marty Makary and Zubin Damania (aka ZDoggMD), both previous guests on The Drive. Marty is a Johns Hopkins professor and public health researcher and ZDoggMD is a UCSF Stanford trained internist and the founder of Turntable Health. This episode, recorded on December 27, 2021, was in part inspired by some of the shoddy science and even worse messaging coming from top officials regarding COVID-19. In this discussion, Marty and ZDoggMD discuss what is known about the omicron variant, the risks and benefits of vaccines for all age groups, and the taboo subject of natural immunity and the protection it offers against infection and severe disease. Furthermore, they discuss at length the poor messaging coming from our public officials, the justification (and lack thereof) for certain mandates and policies in light of the current evidence, and the problems caused by the highly politicized and polarized nature of the subject. Themes throughout the conversation include the difference between science and advocacy, the messaging which is sowing mistrust in science despite major progress, and a search for what a possible “end” to this situation might look like. NOTE: Since this episode was recorded over the holiday and published ASAP, this is an audio-only episode with limited show notes. We discuss: 00:04:15 - Comparing omicron to delta and other mutations 00:13:15 - Measuring immunity and protection from severe disease—circulating antibodies, B cells, and T cells 00:18:45 - Policy questions: what is the end game and how does the world go back to 2019? 00:24:00 - A policy-minded framework for viewing COVID and the problem of groupthink 00:39:00 - The difference between science and advocacy 00:46:00 - Natural immunity from COVID after infection 00:57:15 - The unfortunate erosion of trust in science despite impressive progress 01:02:30 - Do the current mandates and policies make sense in light of existing data? 01:18:15 - Risks associated with vaccines, and the risk of being labeled an anti-vaxxer when questioning them 01:26:15 - Data on incidence of myocarditis after vaccination with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines 01:35:00 - Outstanding questions about myocarditis as a side effect of mRNA vaccination and the benefit of boosters 01:40:30 - The risk-reward of boosters and recommendations being ignored by policy makers in the US 01:43:30 - Sowing distrust: Lack of honesty and humility from top officials and policy makers ; 01:52:15 - Thoughts on testing: does it make sense to be pushing widespread testing for COVID? 01:58:45 - What is the end point to all of this? 02:05:30 - Downstream consequences of lockdowns and draconian policy measures 02:10:30 - The polarized nature of COVID—tribalism, skeptics, and demonization of ideas 02:20:00 - Looking back at past pandemics for perspective and the potential for another pandemic in the future 02:25:00 - What parents can do if their kids are subject to unreasonable policies 02:28:45 - Voices of reason in this space 02:32:15 - Strong convictions, loosely held: the value in questioning your own beliefs -------- About: The Peter Attia Drive is a weekly, ultra-deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing health, longevity, critical thinking…and a few other things. With over 35 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including fasting, ketosis, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more. Peter is a physician focusing on the applied science of longevity. His practice deals extensively with nutritional interventions, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, emotional and mental health, and pharmacology to increase lifespan (delay the onset of chronic disease), while simultaneously improving healthspan (quality of life). Learn more: https://bit.ly/3F0v4Hr Subscribe to receive exclusive subscriber-only content: https://bit.ly/3HDy7a7 Sign up to receive Peter's email newsletter: https://bit.ly/3JKiXBV Connect with Peter on: Facebook: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDFB Twitter: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDTW Instagram: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDIG Subscribe to The Drive: Apple Podcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveApplePodcasts Overcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveOvercast Spotify: http://bit.ly/TheDriveSpotify Google Podcasts: http://bit.ly/TheDriveGoogle