The pandemic has stress tested all our institutions, especially those we have relied on for truth seeking and sensemaking. It's deepened the chasm between mainstream and alternative, consensus and contrarian. A couple of days ago the most popular alternative media personality in the world, Joe Rogan, hosted mainstream CNN medical correspondent Sanjay Gupta for a three hour special on vaccines and the pandemic. A small number of the clips went viral, but the full episode was much more nuanced and interesting. Zubin Damania is a naturally heterodox thinker and has become one of the breakout stars of the pandemic. Rebel Wisdom's David Fuller caught up with Zubin to chat through what happened and what to make of this rift between heterodox and mainstream. To join future conversations, consider becoming a Rebel Wisdom member: https://rebelwisdom.co.uk/plans