What tactic did Donald Trump steal from Gordon Brown? What can we learn from when Labour beat UKIP in the 2012 Rotherham by-election when it comes to taking on Farage? As a New Labour alumnus, why does John Healey think there was more patience for change in 1997 compared to 2024? Rory and Alastair are joined by John Healey, The Secretary of State for Defence, to discuss all this and more. For Leading listeners, there’s free access to the Wordsmith Academy - plus their report on the future of legal skills. Visit https://www.wordsmith.ai/politics "To save your company time and money, open a Revolut Business account today via https://www.revolut.com/rb/leading, and add money to your account by 31st of December 2025 to get a £200 welcome bonus or equivalent in your local currency. Feature availability varies by plan. This offer’s available for New Business customers in the UK, US, Australia and Ireland. Fees and Terms & Conditions apply. For US customers, Revolut is not a bank. Banking services and card issuance are provided by Lead Bank, Member FDIC. Visa® and Mastercard® cards issued under license. Funds are FDIC insured up to $250,000 through Lead Bank, in the event Lead Bank fails. Fees may apply. See full terms in description. For Irish customers, Revolut Bank UAB is authorised and regulated by the Bank of Lithuania in the Republic of Lithuania and by the European Central Bank and is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland for conduct of business rules. For AU customers, consider PDS & TMD at revolut.com/en-AU. Revolut Payments Australia Pty Ltd (AFSL 517589)." 00:00 Intro 00:23 Wordsmith AI 01:48 How has labour and politics changed? 13:04 Farage, Reform, and flags 18:04 What government says it’s delivered 22:23 Why Healey is in politics 25:37 New Labour years 31:08 Revolut 32:26 Can we really spend 3% of GDP on defence? 36:19 Is the U.S. still reliable? 44:16 Ukraine & Gaza 47:04 “If war came fast”: MoD speed, accountability, deep reform 51:01 Russian incursions into NATO 58:08 Gaza 1:00:22 The case for Keir Starmer’s leadership 1:02:13 The Atlantic story: celebrating a law change by sailing 1:05:12 Debrief Social Producer: Celine Charles Producer: Alice Horrell Senior Producer: Nicole Maslen Head of Politics: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport