In this conversation, I sit down with Stephen Roach on the Makers and Mystics podcast to explore why our stories feel exhausted — and what that reveals about our cultural moment. We talk about the end of the post–World War II narrative, the collapse of the hero (and even the anti-hero), and how storytelling has drifted. We also discuss fairy tales, monsters, AI, and the future of art. Let me know what you think in the comments and come join us at the Breath and the Clay conference, a creative arts gathering in Winston Salem, NC March 20-22, 2026: http://www.thebreathandtheclay.com/ Listen to this episode on The Symbolic World podcast (and please review the podcast - it helps a lot): - Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2RkPAmRS76SX5yl4d7l5ms?si=CWpNcYlfTZqwkZogIvWRwA - Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/437-making-space-for-the-resurrection-of-art/id1386867488?i=1000751732532 --- Another opportunity to come together and meet is the Symbolic World Summit 2026! Speakers include Fr. Josiah Trenham, Mary Harrington, Dn. Seraphim Rohlin, myself, and others. Date: May 14-16 Place: Broadview Heights, OH Buy your tickets now and get $50 off with the early bird sale. Don't miss out: https://symbolicworldsummit.com/ Hope to see you there. --- 🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe 💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com 🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau Timestamps: 00:00 - Coming up 01:21 - Intro music 01:47 - Introduction 03:08 - Narrative exhaustion 04:38 - End of the WW2 narrative 08:40 - Fairy tales 11:09 - Jonathan's retelling 13:17 - Art and ideology 17:41 - Complexity in religious art 21:32 - Trust in the audience 24:33 - Participation in art 28:27 - Distorted retellings 32:30 - Resistance of tyranny 35:28 - Identity and form 37:16 - Limitation and contemporary art 41:34 - AI art 44:11 - Human connection 45:30 - Making space Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/ This episode on the Makers and Mystics podcast: https://youtu.be/zvq-lGPoZ1U?si=AVG0r43piH86qPvf