John speaks with Mike Pezzullo, former Secretary of Australia’s Home Affairs Department (2017-2023), about the nation’s historical resilience and current security challenges. They explore how Australia’s early naval power deterred threats like German warships in WWI, yet today, the country faces a "real and present danger" from China’s naval deployments, such as the recent task group in the Tasman Sea. Pezzullo warns that Australia’s strategic sensibility has declined, leaving it vulnerable despite warnings from leaders like former Prime Minister Rudd in 2009. The conversation shifts to actionable solutions, emphasising the need for leadership to prioritise defence over social spending. Pezzullo suggests doubling maritime surveillance, investing in autonomous underwater drones, and fostering regional alliances to counter coercion without forcing nations to choose between the U.S. and China. He stresses that with political will, Australia can secure its freedom, drawing on past successes like economic reforms and border protection under leaders like former Prime Ministers Howard and Abbott. Michael Pezzullo is a former Australian public servant who served as Secretary of the Department of Home Affairs from 2017 until 2023. He was previously Secretary of the Department of Immigration and Border Protection, and Deputy Secretary of the Department of Defence. Michael has a BA (Hons) in History from Sydney University. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Conversations feature John Anderson, former Deputy Prime Minister of Australia, interviewing the world's foremost thought leaders about today's pressing social, cultural and political issues. John believes proper, robust dialogue is necessary if we are to maintain our social strength and cohesion. As he puts it; "You cannot get good public policy out of a bad public debate." If you value this discussion and want to see more like it, make sure you subscribe to the channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtnYSEGViOnb7k8ezUaWUww?sub_confirmation=1 And stay right up to date with all the conversations by subscribing to the newsletter here: https://johnanderson.net.au/contact/ Follow John on Twitter: https://twitter.com/JohnAndersonAC Follow John on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnandersonac Follow John on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/johnandersonac/ Support the channel: https://johnanderson.net.au/support/ Website: https://johnanderson.net.au/ Podcast: https://johnanderson.net.au/podcasts/ 2QH0QLLWRVNX5LFA