SPONSORS: - Take Cheers Restore after your last drink or before going to bed and wake up feeling at least 50% better — or your money back. For a limited time our listeners are getting 20% off their entire order at https://cheershealth.com/TOE Every episode days early, ad-free, plus my essays: https://curtjaimungal.substack.com/subscribe Peter Godfrey-Smith, professor at the University of Sydney and author of Other Minds: The Octopus and the Deep Origins of Consciousness, joins to explain why he thinks meeting an octopus is the closest we'll get to meeting an alien. He's now developing a new, speculative theory of consciousness centered on rhythm. The conversation explores why he thinks "having a mind" is a graded property rather than a yes-or-no one — and what that implies for earthworms, bacteria, and plants. We discuss how many selves may exist inside a single octopus. Godfrey-Smith explains why he suspects rhythmic, large-scale electrical activity in the brain — not just point-to-point neural firing — is essential to consciousness. He also addresses what Anthropic's discovery of a "workspace" inside Claude does and doesn't show, and why he assigns computers a very low probability of being conscious. Finally, he makes the case for why a silicon neuron could never do "exactly" what a biological one does. This is an in-depth conversation with Peter Godfrey-Smith. FOLLOW: - Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e - Substack: https://curtjaimungal.substack.com/subscribe - Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt - Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs - Crypto: https://nowpayments.io/donation/TOE - PayPal: https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=XUBHNMFXUX5S4 LINKS MENTIONED: - Other Minds [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0374227764?tag=toe08-20 - Peter's Website: https://petergodfreysmith.com/ - Reality+ [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0393635805?tag=toe08-20 - A Materialist Theory of the Mind [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0415100313?tag=toe08-20 - Rodolfo Llinas: https://med.nyu.edu/faculty/rodolfo-llinas - Bruno's Research: https://qbi.uq.edu.au/groups/vanswinderen - Dehaene's Commentary on Language Models [Paper]: https://www-cdn.anthropic.com/files/4zrzovbb/website/cc4be2488d65e54a6ed06492f8968398ddc18ebe.pdf - A Cognitive Theory of Consciousness [Book]: http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Abstracts/Baars_88.html - Oscillations in the Central Brain of Drosophila Are Phase Locked to Attended Visual Features [Paper]: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2010749117 - The ENCODE Project: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/genomics/encode-project.html - What Is It Like to Be a Bat? [Paper]: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cavitch/pdf-library/Nagel_Bat.pdf - The Explanatory Gap [Paper]: https://philpapers.org/rec/LEVMAQ - Inferring Consciousness in Phylogenetically Distant Organisms [Paper]: https://direct.mit.edu/jocn/article/36/8/1660/120485/Inferring-Consciousness-in-Phylogenetically - Remarkably Bright Creatures [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/0063204150?tag=toe08-20 - Giant Cuttlefish: https://australian.museum/learn/animals/fishes/giant-cuttlefish-sepia-apama-gray-1849/ - Cuttlefish Exert Self-Control in a Delay of Gratification Task [Paper]: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/rspb/article/288/1946/20203161/86132/Cuttlefish-exert-self-control-in-a-delay-of - Stanford Marshmallow Experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment - How We Found the Giant Squid: https://www.ted.com/talks/edith_widder_how_we_found_the_giant_squid More links at https://curtjaimungal.substack.com Guests do not pay to appear. #science